wightdogs.com ISLE of WIGHT DOGS and OWNERS

We have been getting reports of Dog Wardens requiring members of the public to prove to them that they have doggie bags.

The Dog Wardens have no power to search you and are unable to issue you with a Fixed Penalty Notice for not having bags.

wightdogs.com advise is to always clear up after you dogs.

We have requested a statement from the council setting out a definitive statement of what legal powers Dog Wardens do have, and what members of the publics rights and responibities are.

Watch this space.

There is no way that this is legal, had the wardens been trained the first thing that the training would have covered would be what they can do and what they cant.

Only the police have the right of stop and search, even then they have to prove that they had just reasons.

If these warden are misleading you into believing they have the right to search you then it should  be reported it to the police immediately.

They know full well that this is way beyond any powers they have, as do the council...but the end justifies the means, whilst their superiors turn a blind eye.

Talk about creating an us and them situation.

Well as there has been no response as yet from the council, and as the actual powers of a dog warden appear to be a secret, as despite extensive searching on the Internet we have been unable to establish any definitive information (if you know different please send us a link to it) therefore we will offer some interim advise on what we believe to be the situation regarding your rights should you be approached by a dog warden.

Firstly always try to have a witness present.

Secondly they are able to issue Fixed Penalty Notices, which means you will have to pay a fine within a set period of time or you will be liable to court action.

You can be issued with a Fixed penalty Notice for the following:

• Failing to clear up after your dog
• Letting your dog enter an excluded area
• Not having your dog on a lead on a pavement or road
• Possibly for the amount of dogs you have with you (although not sure of this one)
• There may be more but until the council break their silence you and us will remain in the dark.

You cannot receive a Fixed Penalty Notice (fine) for not having any dog bags, or for failing to show a dog warden your dog bags.

They have no power to search you, and they are not allowed to lead you to believe otherwise.

You have no choice other than to supply them with your name and address if they say they are going to issue you with a Fixed penalty Notice. However we do not believe that you have to accept the Fixed Penalty Notice if you consider you have not committed the offense you are being accused of.

We think they are able to tell you to put your dog on a lead should they consider it necessary, however there is no requirement that we are aware of for you to have your dog on a lead other than on a road/pavement etc.

If you are requested by them to put your dog on a lead, do so and then ask the reason why it was cosidered necessary.

They may try to give you "advice" or to "educate" you regarding your dog. If they try to do so ask them if you have any choice in the matter of having their "advise" forced on you. If they say no then tell them their advise is not welcome.

Avoid calling them Anti-Dog Wardens, Fascists, etc.

 They have to treat you with respect, as you are their customers,If you are not happy with the way you have been treated or have been spoken to by them contact the council to complain, and send a copy of any complaints to us at wightdogs@googlemail.com

We would have considered it was in both dog owners and the councils favour for there to be a good working relationship between dog wardens and the public, after all if everybody cleared up after their dogs we wouldn't get the blame for the rogue element minority, but given the nature oftheir employment any trust is likely to take a lot of time and effort to establish.

  However any good-will, which has been hard won, is fragile and liable to break down instantly due to the injustice of a heavy handed abuse of power. Which is also likely to be counter productive as when people, and their rights, are not treated with respect, even though they take their responsibilities seriously, they may choose to no longer do so.

Despite two email to the council regarding this there has been no response whatsoever.

Are we to assume that the council don't know?

Or perhaps they consider that you don't have a right to know?

Still they live in the right place to bury their heads in the sand.

Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:54 AM

Dear Ms. XXXXX,

I am writing as I have been contacted by two members of the website stating that the councils dog wardens have been approaching members of the public and requiring them to show that they have dog bags about there person.

I will remind the council that dog wardens have no powers of search,and under the Dog Control Orders not having dog bags is not an offense,and no fixed Penalty notice can therefore be issued.

We would like a definitive statement, from the IW council, setting out what legal powers their Dog Wardens have as we intend to publish them on the website to advise our members of their legal rights andresponsibilities in this area.

This situation has been explained to the Police, and a request for information has also been made to them.

--

Your Sincerely

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:04 AM

Dear Ms.XXXXX,

We are urgently awaiting an answer on this matter.

If we do not receive a definitive statement from the IW council, setting out what legal powers their Dog Wardens have and the responsibilities of dog owners in relation to them, we will have no alternative other than to recommend that Island dog owners, both resident and visitors, withdraw co-operation with your Dog wardens.

As it would appear the council themselves are not aware of the actual situation.

--

Your Sincerely

Six days after requesting a statement we have finally had a response from the council as to whether it is legal for their dog warden to search you

Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:06 AM

Dear XXXXXXXX

Thank you for your email requesting further information as to the powers of Dog Wardens. Your request has been forwarded to the appropriate service with a request that they respond to you within 20 working days.

Yours sincerely

Speaks for itself!

 They are employed by us to SERVE us, if they are seriously suggesting they are in any doubt whether their wardens are legally entitled to search us they should ask the police. Then they can apologise to us and tell us lessons have been learned, again!

Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 6:17 PM

Dear XXXXXXXXXXX,

I would respectfully remind the council that this information has been requested in order to inform the public of their rights, with regard to the actions your dog wardens. As I am acting on behalf of wightdogs.com, which is in effect a local newspaper circulated to the community, I would have considered that the council would have been eager to forge links with the community especially when considered that members of that community are left feeling aggrieved due to the actions of your representatives.

Given the councils past record with regard to UK and European law and their own constitution, I would have further considered that the council, and their representatives, would have wished to be seen to act fairly and in accordance with the legal constraints, for the protection of the individual, placed upon them.

If the council persists in its stance of treating this request as being from me as an individual, I would remind you that the 20 working days is taken from the date the council received the request, not six days later when you, as the nominated officer, chose to acknowledge it.

--

Yours Sincerely

XXXXXXXXXXXXX (on behalf of wightdogs.com)

I used to religiously clear up after my dog until one day I got issuedwith a fine for not doing so even though he hadnt even done it it wasjust a pile that was already there.

Pack of lies and since then if nobody is about i dont bother whats the point if you get a fine anyway.

Just a suggestion but if in the future anyone else is mistakenly accused of letting their dog foul in a public area.  I would bag and pick up the "evidence" and tell them that I would be getting it DNA tested to prove otherwise.  Then once confirmation was obtained make my appeal against the charge and get back the cost of the DNA test etc. 

I believe DNA testing on dog faeces is done in Germany by their equivalent of Dog Wardens in order to identify the dogs of the irresponsible owners.

Twister at 10:49AM on Jun 29, 2009

I used to religiously clear up after my dog until one day I got issuedwith a fine for not doing so even though he hadnt even done it it wasjust a pile that was already there.

Pack of lies and since then if nobody is about i dont bother whats the point if you get a fine anyway.

We cannot condone that, although I see, and share, your frustration. I am afraid that we have reached the sorry state of needing a witness present in order to be on the safe side, which is a disgrace.

I have finally had a response regarding the Dog Wardens, and surprise surprise its a non answer which makes no mention of them informing people to show they have dog bags in their possession.

Obviously lessons haven't been learnt yet Talibanboyo.

click here to see it if you fancy wasting your time

Debbiemouse at 01:27PM on Jun 29, 2009

Just a suggestion but if in the future anyone else is mistakenly accused of letting their dog foul in a public area.  I would bag and pick up the "evidence" and tell them that I would be getting it DNA tested to prove otherwise.  Then once confirmation was obtained make my appeal against the charge and get back the cost of the DNA test etc. 

 

I believe DNA testing on dog faeces is done in Germany by their equivalent of Dog Wardens in order to identify the dogs of the irresponsible owners.

Good plan but you would have to divide the evidence and give the warden half of it or they would just claim that you had swaped it prior to having it tested.

They appear to be hell bent on making themselves the oppressors, and us the victims. Such is the calibre of the person the job attracts.

             Constant Blunders

Do they put you in mind of anyone?

By way of a comparison to the way Island dog wardens and our council go about their business we have been doing some research on the Internet and we have come across Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council (in the midlands) and their wardens policy, I quote:

"Authorised officers will always identify themselves by name, number (wardens service) and role and will carry a written authority. Wardens will carry verification of their accredited status, which will describe the uniform they will wear, and the powers they have been accredited with. They will also have displayed on their uniform the Home Office approved accreditation badge, and will wear identification numerals on their epaulettes"

Which is unbelievable in comparison to the level of "service" we are subjected to, and our council have successfully avoided making any comment on their wardens asking people to turn their pockets out to prove they have dog bags. Which is a power they have not been accredited with.

It goes on to state:

"Legislation will be enforced in a skilled, professional, fair and open way. All authorised officers will be fully trained and authorised in those aspects of legislation relevant to their duties  Consistency and fairness are critical to ensure that public support and confidence inthe scheme are maintained"

Which will explain our lack of confidence then.

And get this bit:

"In the discharge of our enforcement responsibilities we will recognise our accountability to the public."

Wow, talk about a postcode lottery!

How can this vast discrepancy be justified? When we, in common with the people of Sandwell, pay our council tax in order to get the consistent level of service we are entitled to, and we end up with the short straw.

You may not need a witness in Sandwell but I for one will insist on having one present here on the Island.

We have finally managed to track down, through extensive searching on the Web, a reference to the issue where wardens are asking people to show they have dog bags.

We found it in DEFRA`s guidance in the use of Fixed Penalty Notices, it states under the heading:

"Some good questions to ask when used following a caution"

"Do you have any bags or other devise for clearing up after your dog has fouled with you today?"

Which is supplied as a suggestion of the kind of questions they could ask of someone under a caution - not to just be asked of someone who isn't under a caution, and is just going about their lawful business.

This, as stated, is an EXAMPLE of the type of question to be asked AFTER A PERSON HAS BEEN CAUTIONED, which means they are required to specifically inform you that:

 "You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention, when questioned, something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence."

 A  CAUTION, in the context of gathering information to support the issuing of a Fixed Penalty Notice, is the means by which an enforcement officer can question an alleged offender and so gain information that is then admissible in court.

They MUST be alleging that you have carried out an OFFENCE and they MUST inform you that you are under caution.

There is no mention that they can just walk up to you and ask you to prove that you have bags. As this was never the intention.

Please email us at wightdogs@googlemail.com with any concerns you have regarding anything they have done or said to you and we will keep a log.

'It is policing on the cheap. These people are given cursory background checks and minimal training. We are concerned about some of the people who are slipping through the net.'

Simon Reed, vice chairman of the rank-and-file Police Federation

Taken from an article on the web regarding what have been dubbed as 'Jacqui Smith's Irregulars' which include Dog Wardens

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1187568/State-recruits-army-private-snoopers-police-style-powers.html

wightdogs at 11:38AM on Jul 08, 2009

By way of a comparison to the way Island dog wardens and our council go about their business we have been doing some research on the Internet and we have come across Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council (in the midlands) and their wardens policy, I quote:

"Authorised officers will always identify themselves by name, number (wardens service) and role and will carry a written authority. Wardens will carry verification of their accredited status, which will describe the uniform they will wear, and the powers they have been accredited with. They will also have displayed on their uniform the Home Office approved accreditation badge, and will wear identification numerals on their epaulettes"

 

Which is unbelievable in comparison to the level of "service" we are subjected to, and our council have successfully avoided making any comment on their wardens asking people to turn their pockets out to prove they have dog bags. Which is a power they have not been accredited with.

 

It goes on to state:

"Legislation will be enforced in a skilled, professional, fair and open way. All authorised officers will be fully trained and authorised in those aspects of legislation relevant to their duties  Consistency and fairness are critical to ensure that public support and confidence inthe scheme are maintained"

Which will explain our lack of confidence then.

And get this bit:

"In the discharge of our enforcement responsibilities we will recognise our accountability to the public."

Wow, talk about a postcode lottery!

How can this vast discrepancy be justified? When we, in common with the people of Sandwell, pay our council tax in order to get the consistent level of service we are entitled to, and we end up with the short straw.

You may not need a witness in Sandwell but I for one will insist on having one present here on the Island.

 

 

and in comparrison we get an obese slob with bad breath wearing shorts

Information on the performance of the Island Dog Service along with information and all of our Freedom Of Information requests and responses can be found here.

Decide for yourself whether we are getting value for money.